The ambulance took him away. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. Or 45 cal quickly changes the perspective f the individual. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. Great article by the way. 9mm capacity! Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. Id use either! His logic was that if there ever were a scene where they got into a firefight and one deputy ran out of ammo any of the others could provide him with one of their spare mags. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. All this newer powder and more efficient bullets. Been hunting 49 years. During 15 years of LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! The results may surprise many as it did myself. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? Battlestar Galactica. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. The main reason I now have a 9 mm is that at the time, I could not find a small enough 45 that was double action. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Missing it not an option. All animals died pretty much on location. It is also logical to assume that when the larger round enters a major body organ, the negative impact upon that organ will be more significant. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. Muscle memory is great thing. Reality. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . That much is true. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. WebSTI Tactical. But in summer I have just discovered the Sig Sauer P938, a 9mm 7+1 with extended magazine. I carry a 9mm on me at all times, and I feel it is adequate enough to do what I need from a handgun, but I have them loaded with 147gr JHP ammo. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. If you like and are comfortable with what you shot, then you will carry what you like. The body's liver, pancreas and kidneys also can make about 1 gram of creatine per day. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. 1SGT. Officer needs help!! WebYes, definitely. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. Explore. Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. Sound familiar?? When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. Sorry for the rant. Give me a break!! This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. I know this is off topic. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. Most self-defense shootings take place inside 20 feet and are over in seconds; if Im out in public and shooting beyond that distance, itll probably be tough to sell as self-defense to a judge and/or jury anyway. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. Take this for what its worth. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. No regrets. At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. The bullet has far less weight and cross section than a .45 acp? Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. career to carry a Glock 9mm. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. F=MA is not applicable. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? Yes, Im another old Viet Nam Vet. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. thanks for your time, greg. Its too small. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Love it. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. Our team, our mission, our partners, and more. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. Taurus 45 But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. SEMPER FI. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. I am older now, living in the city. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. I like all of them. A .223 is just 55 grains. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. Now that you know where I am coming from. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? Possible off hand 200. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. All rights reserved. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? In response to this, ammunition makers began to design Hollowpoint bullets which would expand in the air during flight. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. When the weather is colder and requires a jacket or coat, I carry my Glock 30s, extra mag for either. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. 2. It makes a bigger hole. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. I imagine humans are the same. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? A 5 psi blast overpressure will rupture eardrums in about 1% of subjects, and a 45 psi overpressure will cause eardrum rupture in about 99% of all subjects. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. S&W was required to announce it due to SEC requirements as they are one of the only publicly-owner companies. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. Why arent both so much better than .223? Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. I Have hair and an angular face. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! Its a High Point .40S&W. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. Oh yeahMale mental dropped like a 50 pound bag of sand. Interesting. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911.

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